This is indeed an interesting discussion. I teach French in highschool (and English in private) so this is rather important for me. I agree with the inductive method of learning a language, meaning that you don't start with grammar rules right away, but you make pupils guess those rules from texts and situations. I have always thought that the rules you discover on your own are the ones you remember most and apply easier to new situations. Because that is what grammar helps us to do. Ok, you learn words and expressions but grammar helps you relate them in a correct way so that your message is conveyed accurately. And if you know how to use one rule in one situation, you will be able to apply the same rule to new situations. Grammar is important to me because through grammar analogies I have come to learn other languages as well. I have not spent many hours studying the grammar of the new languages I am learning, but I paid much attention to the differences from the languages I already know. In contrastive learning I think grammar is quite important. I don't think grammar should scare people, it is like a logical game, there are rules to follow and if you know them well you can play. And just like in a ... say computer game, you can play it without knowing the rules yet. But while playing you become aware of the rules and play better and better. So yes practice is essential too. hehe, it seems this subject makes people really talk, huh...

Comment written by I-R-I-N-A on Jun 02, 2005 @ 16:51

Hi there! Grammar is important, as it is somehow the backbone of the language. Nevertheless, vocabulary may be more important as it helps you in being understood, even if you make mistakes. But what is language learning? Trying to get both of them at the same time ; step by step, the same way as for your mother tongue. A good book I read some years ago : The Gimmicks, by Adrienne. It helped me drop the "classical" grammar-book. Another hint, to get acustomed to both vocabulary and grammar, try to listen to BBC 2 World Service, on short waves.

Comment written by Reginald on Jun 02, 2005 @ 14:25

I totally agree with you Claudie.. I usuall don't have any problems with grammar and stuff, but you need to know a language really well to understand jokes!!

Comment written by NefertiteVanGogh on Jun 24, 2004 @ 01:29

(Oops) I think that is a really good point. I started learning French by diving into the asimil book thinking I could absorb it like I can other things I read in English. It didn't go like that. There is too much to know about the language you can't get from a book and you also have to go talk with people and get all their little jokes and things explained. Fortunately, the thing you mentioned about communication is no problem for me. But its also nice to be able to express yourself a little more fluidly then "where's the metro station". I'm used to being very expressive in English, so resorting to what is basically baby-talk to fellow adults in another language is kind of rough.

Comment written by gotfrench on Jun 09, 2004 @ 01:00

when i learn languages, i start out with only grammar and a very small vocabulary. Once i have the grammar, i can build sentences and when i do sentences i start thinking in that language. It's all about communication competence. That's the most important. If your good at communicate, u can manage using only a very small vocabulary.

Comment written by siMooOn on Apr 08, 2004 @ 22:23

It seems in my experience that Grammar is interlaced with lexicon (words). In German, for eg., certain prepositions require a certain Aspect. So you learn the aspect while you learn the new words. They all go together. This is an interesting topic in Child language acquisition. Children learn new words and put them together with little grammar, but their words are comming faster than the grammar. My advice is that you learn to use new words in context. Some words require a grammatical context (as above), and the context will help you remember the words better too. Memorizing words in rote is a labourous process.

Comment written by Geiste on Feb 28, 2004 @ 02:51

I think one should buy a grammar book right after they learn the basics of their language. I would say 40-50% of words and weird things in a language are grammar based (including verbal conjugations). Being able to recognize which words are verbs, and which words are grammar based (In italian, recognizing Ne, Ci, etc.), is a big part of a language. All that is left is increasing vocabulary. That method has worked for me in teaching myself Italian. I brought myself from a true beginner to an intermediate level in a matter of months. So, learn the basics (basic verbs, basic nouns, basic adjectives), and then go buy/order a grammar book. I recommend a pocket sized one by NTC. Also, buy a dictionary (one with 100,000 words plus).

Comment written by stefano2 on Feb 21, 2004 @ 04:30

I agree fully with that ! I think grammar is discouraging many students while conversation makes more sense.[br][edited by vincent on 2003-10-31 12:09:56]

Comment written by vincent on Oct 30, 2003 @ 18:19

Dan, those were some good points. I think grammar is a great thing, but something one shouldn't worry about until reaching the conversational stage (at least not formally). Grammar is a little bit too abstract at the beginning of learning a new language. Without experience in the language it's too easy to forget the grammar. However, after being in a few conversational situations the learner has much more motivation and background knowledge ("so that's why they talk like that!") for studying formal grammar.

Comment written by jekor on Oct 30, 2003 @ 17:49

Hello everybody! My name is Dan and I’m new at Polyglot. I like very much your topic, Vince: “is it better to start learning with the grammar or to start learning by heart like a child…?” I believe this is probably the major question that each of us has to answer before starting to learn a new language. Please allow me to express a few thoughts on this issue. I know that I’m not saying new things but maybe just putting them in a certain order. Sorry for the lengthy message. First, we should remember that a language can be learned at, more or less, 4 different levels which we can call: 1) tourist, 2) conversational, 3) fluent, 4) accurate. Depending on what level we want to achieve, grammar and “child-like” learning can play different roles. While the “child-like” learning is obvious for the tourist level, trying to “push” this method alone into the conversational level and further may encounter some serious difficulties. Here is a concrete example. I speak English and French, and would like to improve my Spanish and learn Italian. The levels I’m interested to achieve are conversational – for which I will probably need to do a lot of “child-like” learning and some basic grammar, and later fluent, for which more grammar will be necessary along with a much richer vocabulary, expressions and jokes... as you all mentioned. Regarding the grammar there is one important question: Do we have to learn the ENTIRE grammar of a language or there is a certain part of it which is truly… essential, and which should become our… starting point? If there is such an essential part, to find out which one it may be, we can try a little exercise: Let’s try to say the following phrase in a language that we are about to learn, and try to see which is the most… difficult part to translate? “I would like to have an appointment with you in your office tomorrow morning at 10:00am.” What do you think? The answer to this question may suggest a way to learning grammar in a bit of a… wiser manner than we usually do. So, what’s your opinion? Thank you. Dan

Comment written by DanBostan on Sept 20, 2003 @ 00:54

I fully agree with you, that's why we made that site, to practice and not to learn theory take care, dear fellow Vince

Comment written by vincent on Aug 18, 2003 @ 06:00

the grammar is the least important thing in learning a language !!!to belive grammar is the most dangerous in it.!!!!! the words is the most important. if there are anyone disagree me.write to me: kevinlaoer

Comment written by kevinlaoer on Aug 10, 2003 @ 16:58

It is necessary of studying the grammar, but I think if we can't enjoy talking to people, we can't improve our language skills. We need someone to communicate. To write articles and posting comments can be fun for everyone. This is a really nice site! I'm looking forward to studying languages, especially English and French here!!

Comment written by momo on Jul 23, 2003 @ 16:49

Hi, all! Ideal would be to dive in the culture of the language you are learning. If that is possible - spend vacations in another country. Maybe several times, until you can THINK in another language. Do not get discouraged - you have to do something (read, see, pronounce, translate, make a sentence with, etc...) with the NEW word 35 ! times before it becomes "a part of your blood stream"...and you can use it freely in different situations. Vincent! You did a great jod creating this site - THANK YOU!

Comment written by Irena on Jun 28, 2003 @ 14:29

You are right. of course start with the grammar but what I would criticize about language learning in France is that it emphazises a lot on grammar and not enough on inluitive learning. I prefer that kind of method, that way you speak without even thinking about the sentence structure. it comes more naturally. I have been learning english starting with grammar and chinese 3 other languages with the assimil method. see you vince

Comment written by Vince on May 19, 2003 @ 19:18

Hi Claudie ! I agree with you and i will use your advice but before learning a new language, it is necessary of studying the grammar in order to build sentences...Then, when you start to speak fluently, you can look for different words to say something.

Comment written by Anonyme on May 19, 2003 @ 19:04

I think you are completely right. Once you understand the jokes, you are fluent. but I think the hardest thing though is to be able to understand a comic show (ie a one man show). There, you have references to, not only the language, but also very specific cultural things. One very interesting topic, I am going to post is : is it better to start learning with the grammar or to start learning by heart like a child. in france, the assimil method is based on that. see you

Comment written by Vince on May 19, 2003 @ 18:55

Hi everybody! I don't know how you feel about it, but I think that the grammar at the beginning of a language study is the least difficult. The point where it's becoming hard for me is when you need to find the nuances, that is why I can only recommend looking for different words to express one thing, but in different registers. Someone told me that the sign that shows you that you're really "at home" in a language is when you understand its jokes and its irony! How do you see this?

Comment written by Claudie on May 19, 2003 @ 13:58